Lessons From the Netherlands
My dear friend DirtyPants sent me the a link yesterday, it’s an op-ed piece in the NY Times by Leon De Winter, called “Tolerating A Time Bomb.” We had a good discussion about it- (Meaning I talked a lot and she probably fell asleep) but today she suggested I talk about some of the issues we brought up in that discussion. There are a lot, so I am going to make this into a miniseries column, look for updates.
I thought the NY Times piece was a very clear-headed discussion of the issues facing the Dutch today. They have had a very permissive society practically since the middle ages, and I hope they never give that up. Somebody has to provide sanctuary for the likes of Descartes and the early American Settlers we call the Pilgrims. I love Holland, my wife and I honeymooned there, and the people we met and the society we saw were an inspiration to a couple of American Liberals. We can learn some very important lessons from Holland.
First lesson: allowing people to smoke pot in coffee shops doesn’t destroy the social fabric any more than letting them drink beer in sports bars. The Righties will all tell you that Amsterdam is flooded with heroin and crack, but it isn’t. I was just there in December 2004. Every city in America has a much bigger drug problem than Amsterdam. But beyond that, there are some real problems in this permissive utopia.
The idea of the welfare state causes problems. Mr. De Winter didn’t touch on this as much as I would have liked but, Imagine a country where you can live and be free to practice your religion and you are given the equivalent of a middle-class income, including health care, housing, food, and a cash stipend, just for living there. Now imagine you live in a village in the mountains of Morocco, and someone comes and recruits you to live and work there. It won’t take long for you to find a way to bring everyone you know to this paradise, and if they can’t find jobs, well that’s fine because they don’t have to. Just by being married or related to you, your family can live off the welfare system for years. Given the choice between eking out a living in Morocco and living on the dole in Amsterdam, well what would you choose? Even if you were born in Holland, raised on strict Calvinist values, you might be tempted to just take what you can get on the dole and play video games and smoke (legal) marijuana all day. (Maybe I am projecting here, as Dr. Phil would say.)
All or most of these North Africans happened to be Muslims. They found themselves in a situation where they had to live in The Netherlands to make a good living, but the permissiveness of Dutch culture was diametrically opposed to their more conservative values.
They must have felt culturally superior to the Dutch, and at the same time, by having to deal with the government bureaucracy of the welfare system, must have also felt humiliated. It is always humiliating to ask a stranger for help, even more so in the context of a welfare office in a strange country, with the clerk’s condescending attitude, the constant waiting and being forced to accept what is given to you.
These Muslims would not be inclined to assimilate into the larger Dutch culture, their opinion of the permissive society that they found themselves in kept them separate. Over time, some of these North African immigrants became intolerant of the tolerance of the Dutch. If anyone spoke out against this, watch out.
Here’s a real problem with liberals: just pointing out a problem like this gets you labeled anti-Muslim, or racist, or a right-wing bigot. Look at what happened to Pym Fortuyn. Mr. Fortuyn dared to say that Holland couldn’t accept too many more Muslim immigrants and retain its traditional liberal culture, and now we are seeing, maybe he was right. Over here in America Pym Fortuyn was portrayed in all the news outlets (at least the ones I read) as a real fire-breathing right-winger. Ok, but there are Righties from Texas, and Righties from Amsterdam, and they ain’t the same.
We need to remember that sometimes, to honestly confront a problem, we have to admit that there are issues that are going to make people uncomfortable. Just because a problem involves immigrants, doesn't mean that my wanting to solve the problem makes me anti-immigrant. I can be against further immigration from some regions for practical reasons and not be a racist or anti-immigration. I know that its a "slippery slope." But we have to talk about things sometimes, and we can do so in a way that is inclusive, and when we don't, the far Right comes in and makes a real mess. We should be openly discussing what our options are and what we can do to make the situation better, because we are better at it than the Righties, and these are issues that people will trust us with.
I was one of those who read a little about Pym Fortuyn when he was alive, and I seriously considered him a dangerous right wing nutball. I look back now and see how naive I was. Part of tolerance means being intolerant of intolerance. Maybe, as Leon De Winter says:
I need to get back to the news, More Lessons from the Netherlands to come.
I thought the NY Times piece was a very clear-headed discussion of the issues facing the Dutch today. They have had a very permissive society practically since the middle ages, and I hope they never give that up. Somebody has to provide sanctuary for the likes of Descartes and the early American Settlers we call the Pilgrims. I love Holland, my wife and I honeymooned there, and the people we met and the society we saw were an inspiration to a couple of American Liberals. We can learn some very important lessons from Holland.
First lesson: allowing people to smoke pot in coffee shops doesn’t destroy the social fabric any more than letting them drink beer in sports bars. The Righties will all tell you that Amsterdam is flooded with heroin and crack, but it isn’t. I was just there in December 2004. Every city in America has a much bigger drug problem than Amsterdam. But beyond that, there are some real problems in this permissive utopia.
The idea of the welfare state causes problems. Mr. De Winter didn’t touch on this as much as I would have liked but, Imagine a country where you can live and be free to practice your religion and you are given the equivalent of a middle-class income, including health care, housing, food, and a cash stipend, just for living there. Now imagine you live in a village in the mountains of Morocco, and someone comes and recruits you to live and work there. It won’t take long for you to find a way to bring everyone you know to this paradise, and if they can’t find jobs, well that’s fine because they don’t have to. Just by being married or related to you, your family can live off the welfare system for years. Given the choice between eking out a living in Morocco and living on the dole in Amsterdam, well what would you choose? Even if you were born in Holland, raised on strict Calvinist values, you might be tempted to just take what you can get on the dole and play video games and smoke (legal) marijuana all day. (Maybe I am projecting here, as Dr. Phil would say.)
All or most of these North Africans happened to be Muslims. They found themselves in a situation where they had to live in The Netherlands to make a good living, but the permissiveness of Dutch culture was diametrically opposed to their more conservative values.
They must have felt culturally superior to the Dutch, and at the same time, by having to deal with the government bureaucracy of the welfare system, must have also felt humiliated. It is always humiliating to ask a stranger for help, even more so in the context of a welfare office in a strange country, with the clerk’s condescending attitude, the constant waiting and being forced to accept what is given to you.
These Muslims would not be inclined to assimilate into the larger Dutch culture, their opinion of the permissive society that they found themselves in kept them separate. Over time, some of these North African immigrants became intolerant of the tolerance of the Dutch. If anyone spoke out against this, watch out.
Here’s a real problem with liberals: just pointing out a problem like this gets you labeled anti-Muslim, or racist, or a right-wing bigot. Look at what happened to Pym Fortuyn. Mr. Fortuyn dared to say that Holland couldn’t accept too many more Muslim immigrants and retain its traditional liberal culture, and now we are seeing, maybe he was right. Over here in America Pym Fortuyn was portrayed in all the news outlets (at least the ones I read) as a real fire-breathing right-winger. Ok, but there are Righties from Texas, and Righties from Amsterdam, and they ain’t the same.
We need to remember that sometimes, to honestly confront a problem, we have to admit that there are issues that are going to make people uncomfortable. Just because a problem involves immigrants, doesn't mean that my wanting to solve the problem makes me anti-immigrant. I can be against further immigration from some regions for practical reasons and not be a racist or anti-immigration. I know that its a "slippery slope." But we have to talk about things sometimes, and we can do so in a way that is inclusive, and when we don't, the far Right comes in and makes a real mess. We should be openly discussing what our options are and what we can do to make the situation better, because we are better at it than the Righties, and these are issues that people will trust us with.
I was one of those who read a little about Pym Fortuyn when he was alive, and I seriously considered him a dangerous right wing nutball. I look back now and see how naive I was. Part of tolerance means being intolerant of intolerance. Maybe, as Leon De Winter says:
Perhaps what this country needs most of all is another unconventional, outspoken gay politician.
I need to get back to the news, More Lessons from the Netherlands to come.
posted by JC at 10:16 PM
2 Comments:
You clearly don't know what you are talking about. Amsterdam is THE WORST city inthe world when it comes to drug use and the prostitution is a big problem too. doyou have anything to say about that? having legal marijuana DOES SEND the wrong message to young people. it tells them its ok to do drugs. have you ever heard of the phrase GATEWAY DRUG? obviously you are just another liberal pothead who doesnt live in reality.
Ok, I checked my facts, here they are.
I'm not sure how to put links in here, so all I can do is give you the facts and the references to back them up, you'll have to find them on your own.
Hard Drug Use:
Heroine addicts as a percentage of population (in 1995):
160 per 100,000 in the Netherlands;
430 per 100,000 in the U.S.
(Sources: Netherlands Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport;
White House Office of National Drug Control Policy)
What that means, Bub, is there are more people on heroin per capita in The US than The Netherlands.
Youth marijuana use:
Last month use of cannabis (marijuana) by high school seniors:
18.1% in the Netherlands (1996);
23.7% in the U.S. (1997).
(Sources: The Trimbos Institute, Amsterdam, the Netherlands; Monitoring the Future Survey, University of Michigan and White House Office of National Drug Control Policy)
So the youth of The Netherlands are less likely to use marijuana than American kids.
As far as prostitution goes, I would think, at first glance that legal prostitutes would have better medical care, be less likely to be enslaved by their employers, and more likely to eventually leave the sex trade. I don't have time to look up any stats on that right now, but let me be clear, I don't think prostitution is a very good job for anybody, but since they have always been around, (worlds oldest profession) and they presumably always will, we should at least protect them and help them leave the sex trade when they are able.
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